From the Australian: “A STOUSH has erupted between Australia’s largest real estate franchise and the new property sales web site myhome.com.au, which is backed by James Packer, as tensions build in the increasingly competitive online classifieds market.”
I cannot have whole article but click here to read it….be careful of some of the things being said as they come from people who have interests in other portals…
67 Comments
Peter Ricci
Just had an email from a visitor to the site telling me not to put ….. (lots of full stops) in my posts.
I will try to refrain from doing this from now on. It was not a nasty email, but some advice.
I have actually had a couple of people comment on my lack of writing skills over the year. This is fine, I am not a writer – as the Mr Kerrigan (The Castle) once quoted “he is an ideas man”.
Regards Peter
John (Licensed Land Agent)
Good on ya Peter.
Must be like me “IDEAS”
Tell them their dreaming!
Peter Ricci
Yes,
“You can overcapitalise”
“That’s a big aerial that”
“Gives it a Victoriana Feel”
“Know anything about lead?”
“Jousting Sticks, depends what condition there in”
Oh, I could go on and on, I see him every few weeks as he lives near me, I think he may get that a bit”
Sam
“In that time realestate.com.au commanded 36 per cent of property-related internet activity and domain.com.au snared 12.5 per cent.”
I don’t know where these jerks get their figures from but thats BS, there wouldn’t be anyone in Australia looking for a house who didn’t visit Domain, unless they were stupid or living in a vacuum.
max
last time I looked the internet was not a year 7 class……..
Craig
I like this quote: “Agents are currently giving out all their intellectual property and – apart from consumers viewing it – they really don’t get much back in return”
What do they get out of it? Considering that most buyers will use these sites to find out about the properties I think they are getting plenty out of it.
max
Sam, trust me, outside a few parts of the East people hardly mention domain.
max
at a guess, in WA, SA, NT, TAS and perhaps VIC REA would be light years infront of domain.
Sam
Max (you can’t be from domain, but your name links there ?)
If anyone tries to tell me or any rational person that 3 times as many people in Australia looking for a house visit REA than Domain then I will quite confidently call them a liar or a manipulator of the truth.
Any genuine person looking for a house on the net will go to Domain AND REA, it’s common sense unless as I said they are a Collingwood supporters or in some other kind of drug enduced stupour.
Robert Simeon
Sam,
I can personally accept the traffic variations between Domain and REA as Max is correct in that states such as Tasmania, South Australia, Western Australia and the Northern Territory are REA strong holds as Domain has at this point in time minimal online representations in those areas.
This will obviously change when Rural Press merge with Fairfax Media as this will open up new markets that in turn will reveal and develop new online markets to Domain.
Then you have the roll – out of the http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au which I understand is exceeding traffic expectations since it launched last week. If you search this brand you will see that Fairfax Digital have been busy registering domain names all over the country – so therein lies yet another clue.
It certainly looks to me that Fairfax Digital have been busy implementing new online strategies in new categories where previously they have not explored. Once implemented the Domain traffic can only increase as afterall they have the smartest and cleanest interface. And we all know that this is exactly what the consumers from all walks desire 😉
Elizabeth
Good afternoon,
Craig I believe we are in agreeance. Let us look at the full clip and just who said it.
“The days of old where the major property portals held agents to ransom are over,” Mr Raine said. “Agents are currently giving out all their intellectual property and – apart from consumers viewing it – they really don’t get much back in return.
Is this the same Angus Raine who tried to make money out of Homehound?
Is this the same Angus Raine whose company Raine and Horne was rumored in the press to be taking an equity stake in myhome, and personally investing money into the venture?
From this report, Raine and Horne have not taken equity, but here is young Angus touting myhome and equity.
I smell something really bad here, bad for all independent agents around the country.
Seems to this old boiler that perhaps young Angus does have personal shares, and hopes to make money he believed he should have made with homehound.
I do not believe for one minute that Angus’s intentions are for the benefit of agents. If they were, he would be sticking with homehound.
As for me giving my ‘intellectual property’ to domain and realestate. All I put up on those sites is listings, not any of my marketing intelligence, nor my data base of top clients, nor what prices I sell my properties for. Then of course there are my systems, no they are not up there either.
Perhaps young Angus needs to come clean about his true relationship with myhome. There is no way I am putting my listings on this site only to become a quasi franchisee of Angus.
Now what should scare everyone on this blog is the reference to the ownership of data. Why is this suddenly an issue? Unless of course there are more secrets to this myhome which we know nothing about?
E
Sam
Robert, I’m not disputing that REA get more traffic than Domain , just how much more is what I dispute. I don’t believe the traffc would be all that different and a lot of the extra traffic that REA get would be junk traffic generated from who knows where, my point is that no one looking for a home in Australia would miss Domain and the home buyers and renters are the only traffic worth counting.
Anthony
Have to say – i’d take the traffic over interface debate
You can easily change cosmetics – traffic is another matter
Peter Ricci
Anthony – First impressions count is all I can say! Oh, but we will be fixing this and fixing that – oh those termites will not be there when you move in….
This is simply a huge mistake large companies make all of the time, release half baked sites and spend millions promoting them, Sensis Search and all of those useless Business Directories…
Sam
I guess what I’m saying is I can’t believe that there would be that many genuine home buyers/renters who would visit REA and not visit Domain also.
nick buick
– and … are two of my uber blog vices ;). Sometimes a fullstop just doesn’t drive it home 😉
Hey – blogs are conversational. You need a more elaborate punctuation syntax to communicate effectively (and even then its ‘effective’ might be a strech ;)).
Robert Simeon
Sam,
I certainly agree with you on that as I am sure that every time an employee goes into property portals to upload a property that this is counted as a UV. I stand corrected if I am wrong on this assertion.
Take the number of people in NSW that visited REA in February being 1,188,839. Now does figure include agents uploading properties on the REA portal ? Over 650,000 email leads, and 7.500 million email alerts (realestate.com.au Internal Source 2007).
On closer examination I am buggered if I can work this out – or does nobody open the email leads and email alerts ? As I would have thought that if you opened it it would then count as a new UV.
Or maybe Michael Costa is assisting as we all know what he can do with figures LOL
Sam
Iget email alerts but not just for what I ask for, they also send emails for properties I have no interest in, in areas outside the criteria I asked for.
And yes when you click through to a listing it would count asa UB, I think that is legitimate, but counting agents uploading to their site is not legitimate.
I assume Domain and REA use the same methods of counting UB’s I simply don’t accept that so many EXTRA GENUINE visitors go to REA and NOT to Domain. Are there that many uninformed genuine buyers out there ? I think not. So what does the extra traffic consist of andwhere does it originate from ?
There was a sale recently of 90,000 of those swinging duck toys that bend forward and back, I imagine they are placed in front of PC’s and are set to refresh REA’s various pages. These ducks buy very little real estate I hear.
Robert Simeon
Sam,
I guess these online mysteries would never be revealed or exposed until we had an open public forum like business2.
This is a very interesting thread 🙂
Peter
Sam, I can tell you that in places like Hobart less than 30% of the Agents are on Domain.com.au. This is the case in many capitals. However once Fairfax takes control of Rural Press you will see in less than six months a huge increase in traffic for Domain.
All of the major portals are pushing for unique visitors, with web 2 technologies jumping around and more and more data loaded within one page – page impressions are going out the door.
So in the late 90’s we had everyone banging on about ‘hits’ with real estate, then page impressions, and now unique visitor numbers.
Even with email enquiries, do any of you get spam? If so you can dump some of that data.
What is boils down to is each portal will have different strengths in certain n areas, the smart agents will know who they need to be with.
But most agents are smart enough to know that both portals provide a valuable amount of leads.
I can see that with Domain REA and MyHome (if they all end up with the same amount of property data) it will all – did I say ALL, be about the user experience.
And that day will be a great one – because innovation, speed and simplicity will reign and you will see 3rd party advertising dropping out of search results quickly.
Ooops, did I mention Google? Yahoo? MSN?
Elizabeth
The scandal of Sams Ducks and traffic to realestate.
(Rise of organ music in the background)
Tune in tomorrow when Robert says…
“I sold a record price for a house in Mossman to a duck”
Sam says “Hey that is cool – but I don’t accept the truth unless a duck tells me”
And viewers will learn the secret of the new fairfax weapon http://www.domainduck.com.au .. what will it look like? who will go there? find out tomorrow..same time… same place.
Quack Quack
(Organ music fades)
Just old world humour gentlemen.
E
Robert Simeon
E,
I will duck for cover on that one … not feeling well so I had better visit the quack !!
Sam
Ok how many of you actually clicked on http://www.domainduck.com.au ???
(I confess I did)
Peter Ricci
I did and tried it twice………..
Robert Simeon
I didn’t as I thought that Simon Baker would have registered that one also – so I did not want to give REA any more traffic.
I am sure when Sam Plowman reads this thread later this evening he will register this domain name for business2 posters posterity !!
max
guys, each PC is only counted once a month – thats a UB. I doesnt matter how many time you come back in that month that PC is counted only once…
Sam, back home I ran a test with a mate at an agent who had both Domain and REA. In the same month REA provided 68 emails while Domain only 11.
max
Again, I found my current property on Domain.
max
also, is it UB or UV? same same I guess?
Robert Simeon
max,
No doubt you found your home on Domain – if you click on your name it takes you to Domain – LOL
max
hey, is that a UB for them? haha.
Robert Simeon
max,
However, would you prefer now that you have found your home that Domain send you a UB or a VB ?
max
mate, us adelaide boys drink Coopers.
Robert Simeon
Silly me !! Us Sydney boyz call that naturally fermented drop Poopers LOL
max
Perhaps peter can start a Beer thread?
Robert Simeon
Max,
I would think that Peter is a martini guy – shaken not stirred !!
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
I have to weigh in on this one. You can’t have a VB without a Chiko Roll. Although I am getting tired of them. Maybe it’s time to give up junk food (full stop, full stop, full stop)
Peter, you’re writing’s fine. Tell them to stuff it. You’re not aiming for a literary award, you’re trying to air some issues. To the point and personal is perfect for a blog.
Regarding UBs, I can share some light from a recent report I happen to have. In Jan. 2007, 2.75m UBs were “loyal” to REA. That’s internet talk for saying they did not visit Domain during the month. This was a 33% increase in loyal UBs over a year earlier, according to Nielsen//NetRatings.
Our “loyal” unique browsers number has never been so high.
In the same month, also for the first time ever, Domain had fewer loyal UBs than shared UBs. 975k UBs only visited Domain while 987k UBs visiting both sites. That means Domain may be slowly losing its loyal traffic, while ours continues to grow.
I’m sorry Sam, I know it will disappoint you. But don’t shoot the messenger.
dave
Robert Simeon
Dave,
Whilst you are in the REA kitchen – can you enlighten me as to whether or not a UB’s is also an agent uploading information to your portal ?
I would love to see other agents post here there comparitive results as given the couple of emails I received when I posted our traffic many agreed that Domain smash REA in more than a few Sydney suburbs.
BTW, congratulations on the homepage improvements, Domain improved there speed so I can no longer boil an egg. With REA, I can still roast a chicken 🙂
David Rob Slattery
Hi Dave – interesting facts – have you distributed this report publicly?
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
Robert, I don’t know the answer to that, but I’ll try to find out who knows. It won’t be tonight, though.
I wish domain well also. There is certainly room for two portals to serve agents. Still, the results are pretty clear and in all these areas the second best site is actually a very distant second:
number of email leads delivered to agents
consumer popularity
number of properties for sale or rent
number of agents subscribing
number of markets we are active in
number of property searches completed
We’re not perfect by any means, but we’re improving. We get up every morning to deliver for agents. In fact 20% of our staff have been agents.
You know as well as I do that agents work hard to get their listings. We want to do everything possible to help them convert those listings into commissions.
dave
David Rob Slattery
I ask you this Dave – as I do find it incredibly hard to believe that so many people prefer the REA site to domain’s?
I have asked Simon Baker this before – and he did not answer. Surely you will?
What % of your 4 billion/trillion visitors comes from rental and sale traffic? What % of your leads come from rental enquiries?
Robert Simeon
David,
Interesting post as Simon’s last post here was >
Simon Baker
Mar 7th, 2007 at 12:42 pm /
Robert
Can you help me out here
In you reponse above you said
Sam
“I
Robert Simeon
Dave, I won’t shoot the messenger. However, I will highlight that management at REA shot the agents when they sold the most convoluted and busiest home page in property portal history to third party advertisers.
No wonder agents are up in arms – you (REA), upsell to outsiders based on what the paying clients deliver you – so you can sell this information for the financial gain of REA.
REA – do NOT have the best interests of agents at heart. I don’t mind a few advertsisers however, with REA it is an orgy.
No doubt when Google launch agents will remember who stood on the corner and said “How much ?”
Is this sell in the agents best interest ? Of course not – which explains why all new portals use the REA homepage as the worst in history.
I guess you never thought you would have competition – now you have.
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
Robert, I honestly can’t follow your first reply. Sorry.
Sam, I know you’re a partisan, but for the sake of those who might take you seriously:
This is a public forum and if you don’t work for domain Robert has close friends there. He can ask them to verify the numbers.
We’ve been posting these numbers on this blog for months now. If they were false, I’m sure some of our competitors would let the world know (not to mention Peter).
dave
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
As for the homepage, you can’t argue with what works. After all, Robert you’ve said yourself what we believe, that our business is all about leads to agents. Our home page delivered over 600,000 leads to agents this month. Many, many more than any competitor.
Robert, you have a very elitist market in Mosman and perhaps you prefer a different look for its own sake. But, we’re not trying to win any graphic design awards, we just want to deliver for agents. For agents, that home page works. Consumers seem to like knowing they can get all their real estate-related information on our site.
That’s the logic behind our purchase of homesite.com.au, too. It’s the country’s most popular home improvement site. Integrated into realestate.com.au, it will help us capture the portion of its 450,000 monthly unique visitors–like investors–who are also interested in shopping for a home.
I’m off to bed. That last Chiko Roll didn’t sit well. Now, I’m definitely swearing them off. You guys have a good night.
dave
Peter Ricci
Hi Folks – Seems like Dave is copping it from all angles again….In my opinion I would rather tell REA how they can improve and then see what they do to improve their website for agents.
I have made my position known on this and I agree that their website needs allot of work.
It needs to form a ladder:
1. What are visitors to the site looking for first and foremost?
2. What are their major force customers (Agents) wanting?
As far as 3rd party advertisers – I know they are need for revenue growth – but REA’s major concern going forward is how can these advertisers be included in pages without getting in the way of the first two rungs of the ladder?
Domain have shown over the past 6 months – for the first time in at least 5 years that they are prepared to change, innovate and continually tweak the user experience.
Will that translate to more visitors? In time yes….With Rural Press coming online they will have direct face-time access to at least another 2000 agents.
If this is the case and it works then you will have similar listing’s on each of the sites – and then it will come down to the user experience.
REA in the meantime HAVE no choice but to re-develop the website and make sure in the future that there site can be a hell of allot more nimble in relation to updates.
I have been sitting here for a long time telling agents to take control of their own destiny in relation to the Internet and it is slowly happening.
Yes we need the portals, but your very livelihoods should not rely on them…. as with any big organisation – this is their dream, with this they can control your advertising spend.
REA’s results speak for themselves in the majority of areas in Australia and this is where their strength lies.
REA and Domain both use Nielson Netratings – and so if either was cheating the other would quickly know about it and complain. So from what I know these results are accurate between the 15 or so real estate companies out of 8000 in Australia that can afford to have Nielson Netratings code in their websites.
And this is why I think Nielson is useless – because it is not all inclusive – but exclusive…Not because their results are wrong – just because you could get 10 visitors to your site each month and be in the top 20 real estate sites in Australia as far as these ratings are concerned – and Hitwise – don’t get me started!
I know it may be hard to understand how the figures can be so different especially if you are in Melbourne or Sydney where Domain is quite strong(Sydney Morning Herald and The Age – Gold in Classifieds for Decades) , but travel to many other areas in Australia and REA do whip the competition.
So, Dave (He works at REA) is a valuable contributor to this site – he has never whined to me about comments made to him (which can sometimes be quite rude) – he also does not shy away from the fact that he is very parochial ( I will laugh Dave when you get offered a job – and accept it at Domain)
I take my hat off to him – I laugh when he posts some stuff just knowing (as I am sure he does) that he is going to cop it – but he keeps coming back and this site is richer for it.
Now do not for one second think I am going soft on his company – I will never do this – but I do acknowledge REA’s competition thin or flush on this site for a number of years.
So keep posting comments – try to be objective and respectful of everyone’s opinions and dissect what you do not believe in – but do it in a manner that we can all learn from.
That’s it!
Scott
Sam – you originally posted:
“I don
Elizabeth
Good Morning,
Robert, I sometimes sit here in amazement how you and I can agree on some issues, yet totally disagree on the rest.
Market conditions are responsible for the range and composition of leads which all agents get from the portals. I cannot for the life of me understand how you can blame realestate (never domain) for your sudden increase in leads for rentals. Surely the ‘housing crisis’ has more to do with the NSW Government not opening up new land for development, compounding on the increase on people migrating to NSW and Australia, compounding further on the level of interest rates and the NSW now in recession economy. Finally, isn’t homeloan affordability also a result of we agents pushing for the highest price for our vendors in a boom period, now in normal market conditions we experience a natural settling?
If you are complaining about rental leads, then I can only assume that your rent roll is pitiful and you have neglected its development for far too long. Why not use these leads to grow this side of your business?
But I ask all on this list, why isn’t anyone asking their local institute to address these issues? Surely as the ‘Industry Body’ this is their realm. Is it the case that we are asking the wrong people?
Or is this a statement in itself. Have we given up on the institutes to act in our best interests and we want more from the portals?
A very interesting thought.
Perhaps this is why REINSW is about to launch a portal of its own. They see that they cannot address the issues here, and instead want to go for a visible money earning venture.
We need to ask the right questions to the right people. And when we find those people, have a close look at what it is they are doing to address those questions and concerns.
E
Elizabeth
A further thought… (Just for you Nick)
Robert, I based my statement above on the assumption that you were talking as a concerned real estate agent, and not as a member of the domain discovery committee.
If it is the latter, and all you are after is some chest thumping in the domain versus realestate debate, then please disregard my comment.
For those who are concerned about this issue, I very much welcome your thoughts.
Are we wanting more from the portals, and want them to fill the gaps being missed by the Institutes?
E
Sam
Dave , [this comment has been edited by site admin]
Domain has the AGE and the SMH , they have had wide exposure on TV they have the entire Fairfax network both on line and off line to promote them. REA has had a few ads on TV and NineMSN plus some Murdoch papers who mainly have a readership of those who can’t read.
Please don’t pander your stats figures around as if they are fact, we all know Neilsens methods are flawed and we all know REA take full advantage of that.
You (REA) are XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX and you will pay the price albeit too late as many of you have already become wealthy on the back of Australia’s agents.
The speculators in your shares seem to be disappearing as the price seems to be falling below what has generally happened lately, perhasp they can see the writing on the wall.
Anthony
Scott
Have to support your view for Queensland. We just finished doing the homeshow in Brisbane. (and we’re coming to a State Near You)
Whilst so many people were extremely positive about our concept – 2 issues we encountered repeatedly.
1. People in QLD believe that they have to have an agent to do the contract?
2. They wanted to be advertised on REA.
What worked extremely well was we had our online calculator – projected on a big screen – People entered their estimate for house price – and we estimated what they would pay in commission. That certainly opened a few eyes.
Peter Ricci
Sam
I am going to edit some of your comments – I don’t like doing this but those comments are just not in line with what I want on this site.
Peter
I should not have to worry about having to monitor every single comment – but I do have some responsibilities and I am the one who will be sued if things get out of hand. Sam I value your comments, when they are constructive and not abusive – you represent yourself here not the whole industry – so make sure you understand this – I want this to be a a vibrant community of opinions. This is only the second time I have had to do this and I do not like it one little bit.
max
So Sam,
there you have it. We all agree REA is miles in front in SA, NT, QLD, TAS, WA, Rural Australia and most of Vic – In fact the REIV site is stronger than domain in Vic.
I know times are changing but facts are facts. Agreed, REA seem to be more focused on the globe than home and fairfax are making smart moves into new Aussie markets.
I am not trying to be smart mate, but you need to face the facts that outside a few suburbs of Sydney, REA kills Domain.
Robert, I work for a developer that has ads on REA, I think you would be very surprised at how few people actually get ‘distracted’ by the 3rd party ads. The click through rates on sites like REA are so small that you would shocked
Anthony
Max – you couldn’t possibly be advertising developers stock on REA – that would be a private selling model.
Oooohhh i can hear that pin
Sam
Sorry Max, I don’t buy it so we don’t all agree do we.
As far as clickthrough rates on REA goes I once spoke to a mortgage originator who had an ad on there, they were taking calls at the rate of 20 or 30 per minute, they sold the enquiry on to others as they couldn’t cope, visitors not distracted ? HA
If the clickthrough rates are so low how come Westpac pay REA $600,000 p/a (figues several years old)
max
“Max – you couldn
Sam
3rd party ads dont bother me at all. someone looking for a house isn’t going to go to the site and get distracted by other stuff, if they’re serious they will search property, is not they won’t – simple. I was only taking issue with the clickthru rates on REA, people may be distracted momentarily but not for long if they’re serious. I only posted in that manner to annoy you. I’m sure you enjoyed it.
max
mate, my wife makes annoying me a sport…
Sam
that’s their job
Paul D
So if all these companies are paying REA to be on the site – how much do you reckon REA are paying Google. I’d love to have 1% of that action.
Robert Simeon
Elizabeth,
Again – you keep missing my point. If you had been following threads you would have read that my greatest concern with REA is they find it difficult to compete with Domain on sales enquiries and traffic. Not, rentals as I don’t really care about rentals as we have have just 1 per cent of our management available for rent yes 5 properties.
RWM Portal figures February 2007
Domain 27,227 visits 72 emails
REA 12,982 visits 54 emails
Yes, the Mosman market is the or one of the strongest markets in Australia. Yes, it has the wealthiest residents based on Taxation Office returns in Australia. There is a strong argument that the Mosman residents read Fairfax newspapers ahead of News Limited publications which is why they prefer Domain. However, The Mosman Daily a News Limited newspaper also happens to be one of News Limited’s highest income newspapers – so residents do read it. Which further identifies that Fairfax have no monolopy in Mosman.
So maybe you can tell me why Domain deliver a 3 : 1 more visitors to our properties when both companies have dominant newspapers in this suburb. We keep hearing that they find Domain a much easier search functionality.
Possibly all these professionals who spend their days looking at computer screens have a valid point.
Elizabeth
Dear Robert,
I would find it hard to tell you of all people, why it is you get different results from different portals.
But I ask you the following to help me understand more;
Do you purchase (or use) the same products on both portals?
Do you buy (or use) more products on one over the other?
Do you see value in the results you are getting? If not, then why are you marketing your properties there?
Do you spend the same in both papers? or do you favour one over the other? If so why do you do this?
3:1 is not an accurate ratio of the figures you provided.
What is your ratio of sales to rental leads from domain? Are you happy with this ratio? Can domain control this ratio or is it more a reflection of market conditions?
Finally, do you accept that domain just may be stronger in Mossman than realestate? If you do, then you need to let go.
It is ok for domain to come first.
Deep breaths.
E
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
Robert, to clarify, until now the Mosman daily has had minimal realestate.com.au branding in it. There hasn’t been a paper in Mosman with any realestate.com.au branding in it.
I don’t believe we need print branding to be successful, by any means. We’re already trouncing domain in email leads to agents and web traffic. However, I will be interested to see the size of any spike that the deal to brand News Ltd’s papers with our brand brings.
Watch this space; I’ll report it here.
dave
Robert Simeon
Dave,
I guess what you call is minimal as in last weeks Mosman Daily I counted 17 REA logos on pages. Now if that is minimal I would expect to see at least 100 logos in the new deal with News Limited.
I am watching this space with great interest as I see it as a very smart announcement moving on. Even more interesting will be to see how all those alternate egos are stroked to create a unified force.
Imagine the room trying to agree when all you will hear will be PAPER – ROCK and SCISSORS !! LOL
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
Um, what?
dave
Dave Platter
(I work at realestate.com.au/the REA Group)
Last week, Robert (I think) asked on this feed whether agents uploading properties to our database contributes to our Unique Browser count. We had 3.7 million UBs in Jan, more than the next 15 websites combined, according to Nielsen//NetRatings.
The short answer is No.
Here